Originally published in Sisters of the Screen: Women of Africa on Film Video and Television. Africa World Press, Trenton, NJ, 2000.
Interview held in November 1998, Washington, DC.
Thembi, you have a long list of accomplishments: you are a celebrated artist in various fields of creative expression as actor, television personality, playwright, vocalist, and choreographer. Could you give a bit of your background?
I was born in a little village called Sabhoza in Zululand and I grew up with my grandmother. My grandmother took care of me because my parents were working in the city, in Durban. My mother was a domestic worker and my father worked as a sales clerk. They only had one room which could accommodate them so that when they were getting ready to have the second baby they had to take me to my grandparents, so I grew up there. I grew up in the rural areas where we would go get water from the river and carry it back on our heads. We would go to the fields to plow. I used to look after my grandfather's kettle. There were no boys in the family to do those chores, so I had to do it. I grew up as a tomboy, fighting with the boys in the fields. My schooling started there. I moved to the city when I was fifteen. That is when I moved to live with my parents. It was also because of my schooling. In the rural area, classes only went to a certain grade, after which there were no other schools, so I had to move to continue my education.
You grew up in South Africa, where your artistic talents were nurtured. Your grandmother's storytelling had a great influence on you. What stories do you remember and how did you experience them as a child?
Well, my grandmother was a very good storyteller. It was a tradition that has continued. Every grandparent could tell stories. Those years I regarded as pre-school for me. It was very informative and very educational. The stories taught us how to take care of ourselves; we learned a lot from those stories. I value them very much, even now. When I look back, I regard myself as having been very lucky to have had that kind of background.
Having had storytelling as a basis in your early education, do you find that you later transferred many of the elements to your work in theater?
I had this background and knew a lot about my traditions. Whereas many of my fellow actors had grown up in the cities and the only life they knew came from growing up in the urban areas. I had a great deal of knowledge about our traditions and the stories of my people. It helped me to be creative in the arts. It also influenced the way I tell stories through music.
Your theatrical debut began when you played in U Mabatha. It was actually in the theater where your artistic journey took form. Would you say that is where your career started?
Yes, that is where it started, although being in the arts for me was not a planned thing because when I was at school...you know, your parents try to protect you and for me as a girl, in those days, you either become a nurse, or a teacher. Your parents then feel that you will have a secure job. Being an artist implied that you wanted to be a "street girl," that you were running out of control. No parent wanted her child to be an artist. It was not regarded as a profession. For me, becoming an actress—I never know whether to say actor or actress....
What is the difference for you between actor and actress?
Well, an actor is an actor, whether you are a female or a male, so I take myself as an actor. A doctor is a doctor; you do not say "doctress." Or they never thought women would become doctors [laughter].
It happened that I dropped out of school because I got pregnant. I then had to look for a job because my parents told me straight out, "Now you have decided to become a woman you have to take care of yourself." Having a baby is not child's play, so I had to go look for a job. Having to leave school, I had to find menial jobs like being a maid. But music had always been my love: at school I used to sing in the choir, at church I would sing in the choir. We would form little groups at school, so I really loved singing. Becoming an actor was something else; it had not yet entered my mind.
So you had not made a connection between these two art forms?
No, not then...when I was working as nanny, I used to sing for the kids that I looked after. The family that I worked for grew very fond of me and they always told me, "You don't belong here, you are an artist!" But at that time, I was only concerned about having that job so that I could earn money and buy things for my child. It so happened that there were auditions advertised for the play U Mabatha, which was a Zulu adaptation of Macbeth in Uzulu. Macbeth was portrayed as a Zulu king. In fact, it was this family that encouraged me to go to the audition. The auditions were done at the University of Natal. I wondered at the time, were they trying to get rid of me [laughter]. As it turned out I auditioned and then I got the part. Fortunately, the rehearsals were in the evening; so, it did not interfere with my job. I could go to work during the day and rehearse in the evening.
At the same time, I had a problem in the evening because my father did not allow any of his children to come home later than a certain time in the evening. I spent most of my time sleeping outside at the toilet, which was outside of the house because my father said straight to me, "If you come home and the lights are off, do not bother knocking at the door, because it means that we are sleeping." I spent most of the time sleeping at the toilet until someone would wake up and open the door so that I could come into the house. But I was really determined to make something out of myself, to be somebody, better than just being a nanny. At that time when I was doing the play, I began to see a little light, of me becoming a professional performer.
We performed the play at Natal University. Of course, in those days, we still performed for segregated audiences. There would be days for black audiences and days for white audiences. Unfortunately, at that time my parents did not make it to see the show. The play got invited to go to London and my father said to me, "Oh, so you are going overseas, you will never come back." I told him, "Yes I am going to come back." I know he was trying to make it difficult for me, but at the same time, I knew he was being protective of me. It was not because he hated me. We went to London, and when we came back, he was the first person to say to everybody, "My daughter has been overseas." He invited me to come to his job so that he could introduce me to his co-workers. After that, I join another play, which was called Meropa, which means "the drums of Africa" in Sesotho. My first work in the theater was mostly musicals.
So you performed and sang in the musicals?
Yes. The play that really took me on the road around the world was the musical play Ipi Tombi. It played around the world. It was then that I could really call myself an artist. Also, because I played the leading role, I really became a celebrated artist.
What was your role in that play?
I was the bride getting married every day. Sometimes, I say, maybe that is why I am still not married [laughter]. I got married for four years every day. To different men, because they would change the actors for the character.
Could you talk about your experience as an actor in cinema and television? Was it a natural evolution from the theater to these media? Was it a natural process?
It was a natural process. After Ipi Tombi, I concentrated a lot on singing. I worked with Hugh Masekela and Miriam Makeba. I performed as a backing singer in their concerts. During those days, I was living in New York, in the late seventies and early eighties. It was when I moved back to South Africa that I started to work in television. When I first left South Africa, there was not yet television. The first time I saw a television was when we went to London. I remember being glued to the television set. I did not want to go to sleep, I tried to stay awake as long as I could, and I did not want to miss anything.
Are you saying that there was no television set where you lived or that there was none at all?
In the whole country, there was no television. Television started in South Africa in 1976. It was only in the eighties that black people were even featured on television. When it started it was only one channel, which only presented white people. Slowly it increased and then we started seeing black faces. There was another channel for black people in the eighties. When I came back in 1985, I started on television by doing music shows. I began to present a music program for television called "Inselelo."
Then I joined the Market Theater. It was the Market Theater that really launched me as an actor. All the work that I had previously done in theater was musicals. I had never done straight drama and acting, you know "real acting." Musicals are different from straight drama. In musicals you sing and dance and everything is dramatized through singing. We workshopped the script, "Have You Seen Zindile" with a friend of mine, Scina Mhlope. We presented it at the Market Theatre. I remember the director at the Market Theatre saying; "Well, I don't know if Thembi is an actor or a singer." In that play, I had four different parts. The play was based on the life story of Scina, how she grew up. We almost had the same background. Her grandmother raised her as well. We could share many stories. I played her grandmother, I played her mother, I played her friend, I played the friend of her grandmother and in all those roles, I simply looked back at my grandmother. In doing so, I became my own grandmother. I transformed into my grandmother. I did everything my grandmother did. I was telling her stories in the play. The play did very well. It was taken to the Edinburgh Festival. We got a "Fringe First" award. We toured around Europe. In fact, that play took me to another step in my career. People started respecting me as an actor. I started getting roles as an actor. That is when I auditioned for the film, Mapantsula. We were in the middle of rehearsing the play Have You Seen Zindile.
In Mapantsula, you play the protagonist Pat, that was ten years ago in 1988, and it was your first film. What do you remember most about your role in the film?
Well, I remember when I was invited to audition for Mapantsula. I did not even believe...I did not even think that I was going to get the part. They wanted women around the age of twenty-three to twenty-five and, at that time, I was almost thirty-seven years old. However, my agent encouraged me to go. Well, I got the part...
The film was made during the apartheid era. Could you talk about some of your own experiences during the film production?
That was the first political movie made in South Africa, in the late eighties, during the state of emergency in our country. A lot was happening around us. I remember that the casting was very closed. During the interview, they wanted to understand what your political views were and, of course, they really had to be careful. Everything was underground. It was done clandestinely. Finally, we started filming. Most of the shots were done in Soweto, in this woman's house. Most of the whites who were working with the film were liberals. The whole thing was done right under the nose of the system, without them knowing it. Before they knew it, the film was outside the country. It was introduced at the Cannes Festival.
What was its impact on you as an artist? How did you experience your role in the film?
I was not aware of the impact of it at the time. To me, I just thought, well it is one of those films that will end up being screened in little places, at political rallies. I did not really think that it was going to be big. I was very, very proud at the end. I remember being invited to a women's conference called "Malibongwe" in Amsterdam, which was organized by the ANC women, and it was at the same time the release of Mapantsula. It was a huge thing. I thought, "Oh my, I am in Hollywood or something!"
With the film Mapantsula, it was the first time that you had seen your image on the big screen. What was it like?
I do not know how to describe it. It was amazing. We were all invited to this big cinema for the preview and I thought, "Oh my, that is me!"
Compare the impression you got from your experience of seeing your image on television....
Well, when watching television, you are at home, it is very relaxed, whereas in the cinema, there are all these strangers, and they are looking at your image. It was a very different feeling.
How did people respond to you in general? You spoke some about your experiences at the women's conference?
The film was difficult for a lot of people who were in exile at the time. It was very touching. Seeing that it was done at home, seeing the surroundings, people commented, "Oh my, this is near my house." In fact, many people cried, but they were also excited by the fact that people in South Africa were using any means to expose the brutality of the South African government.
So you were often in audiences of South Africans in exile?
Yes, it was only screened outside of South Africa. It was only released in South Africa after 1990.
What did you think about your character Pat? I know this was a while ago, but do you remember her and how she was portrayed?
Pat was this girl who had just moved to the city looking for a job, and the first job that she could get was as a domestic worker. I do not know how she got caught up with that guy Panic, who is a gangster.
The fascination of this lifestyle perhaps?
Maybe the protection, because she was new in the city. If you are seen with "the" guy, you feel that you are protected. Although I view Panic more so as a survivor. People do anything just to survive. If you do not have a job, you have to find another way of survival. Pat did not look at herself just as a domestic worker. This was the beginning. She wanted to step forward and do other things—for instance, when she gets involved with the union guy, who introduces her to secretarial work. She had other ambitions for herself.
You said that you had been a nanny. How did you, as the actor in the film, connect with Pat's experiences?
In fact, I did not act in that movie. I just became myself; I just did what I did when I was a nanny. It was funny, because the woman who played the role of my madam is a very nice person. We worked together at the Market Theater. She found it very difficult to be harsh. They tried to push her saying, "You have to be harsh to be in this role." After the take she would come and say, "You know, I did not mean to do that." I would say to her, "Please, come on, we are acting here!" She would take it so personally. She would wonder if she was being too pushy. They would tell her, "In fact, you must be more pushy."
What is the Market Theater? Could you describe its purpose and objectives and give details of the people involved in it and the works that came out of it?
Market Theater Company was formed by Barney Simon, who was the Artistic Director and, Mannie Manim, who was the Managing Director, together with a small group of highly talented young actors. They converted the 1913 Indian Fruit Market into an arts complex, and committed themselves to a theater that would not only entertain, but present to their audiences a reflection of the world in which they lived.
And, of course, Market Theater gave birth to a lot of workshopped productions, many which were dubbed as protest theater. Market Theater gave a lot of artists like myself pride, respect, and a home for creativity. It was primarily dedicated to the development of indigenous work that reflects our aspirations and lives. And even today, it is committed to our community in a time of need, for healing, understanding, sharing, and reconciliation.
You also write songs, plays, and stories. Would you say there is a connection from your childhood, where you actually want to write the stories that you heard or experienced?
Well, in fact, the person who really nurtured my capabilities as an actor and writer, who really encouraged me, was Barney Simon. He passed away about five years ago. He really was my teacher, as far as theater was concerned. He could see through you. He could see what you could produce as an actor. I remember one time he called me and said, "You know Thembi, I have an idea for a play, I think you and I can write this play." I said to him, "Barney, I am not a writer, I am an actor." He said, "No, you are a writer, you have a story to tell." With him we would talk and he would ask, "Where did you grow up," and other questions.
During the time, whatever we would talk about would become a script. I remember another play we did. When I wrote the song, "My Sister Breast-fed My Baby," we were doing a play called "Women of Africa." Barney said to me, "What kind of woman would you want to portray?" I said that I would love to portray a domestic worker because I feel that domestic workers in this country and all over the world have contributed so much in the society.
In South Africa, there is hardly any white household that does not have a domestic worker. All the kids grow up being taken care of by our mothers, by our sisters, by our aunties, and they all grow up being nurtured by that love. When they grow up, they become different people. I told him about when I looked after these children and I had already had my own child by that time. Yet I had to leave my child and had to go look after these kids. He asked me who was taking care of my child. I told him that my sister was taking care of my child. That is where we got the title, "My Sister Breast-fed My Baby." Because my sister breast-fed my baby, while I was looking after other people's kids. We wrote that song.
I remember one time I was singing this song in the play and there was one white guy sitting in front. He started crying. He went out of the theater. After the show, he came backstage and cried again and said, "You know the reason why I am crying is because I just came from enrolling for military duty. I am working in the townships and everything that you said in that song, I have just been through it. A black woman also raised me, so everything that you said in that song just tears me apart. I can see this woman that raised me, and now I have been drafted so that I can shoot the kids in the township." It was a very powerful message.
So "My Sister Breast-fed My Baby" was a song and a play?
It was a musical theater piece. In "Women of Africa," we did storytelling and music about situations in South Africa. We were different women, and each woman had her own story. My story was based on domestic workers, as I just described. Other women had different themes.
You have been quite visible on the television screens of South Africa; you have been both TV host and actor. You are particularly well known for your role in the television series "It's Good, It's Nice." Could you talk about the series and your role in it?
The woman who was producing this series called me up. We were already friends; we had worked together on children's programs. She was both a producer and director. We became very close. She was white, she trusted me, I began to trust her. She was not the type of person that imposed things on you. She would present certain things and I would tell her that I could not do this. I could not do a children's program that does not say anything to our black kids; we have our own stories. If we are going to have a program for our children, because I am doing this program for black kids, I cannot tell them about Cinderella and others. We have our own stories that are never told on television. Our kids are always watching Bugs Bunny and so on. She would listen to me and further explore what I said.
When she first wanted to do this comedy, she had a different thing altogether in her mind. Yet it turned out to be something else when we started talking about it. She had somebody to write the script, he is a very celebrated writer. She told me that he had agreed to write this comedy for us and asked if I could perhaps assist her with the casting. I said to her, "The first thing, this person is white, he does not understand anything about black humor." Many times, for me, with white comedy, out of ten laughs maybe I would find one laugh. Their humor is different from ours. I said that if we are going to focus this comedy on black people, we have to have someone who understands our humor. She then said, "Well, we don't have anybody who could write." I told her that the actors that we were going to cast in the play could work with us to workshop a script. We all know how to laugh. We have so many stories to tell that can make us laugh. We have so many stories in the townships that are funny that we could create into a comedy.
So, then we started in this way. Afterwards we did the casting so that we could get together and workshop the script, step by step. It worked. From the time it came out on television, it was a hit.
What role did you play in the series?
I played the part of an actor who had just come to Johannesburg to find fortune and fame.
You also hosted musical shows for television, are you interested perhaps in producing your own show?
I would love to, which is why I think that my chances being at DCTV (Public Access Television of Washington, DC) will allow me to grow step by step.
What do you think about the concept of community television?
I think that it is a great concept because in South Africa we do not have these kinds of facilities. I am really excited about it. I would never have thought that I could see myself operating a camera and shooting something. And I have already produced something. I really see so many possibilities coming from this experience of learning the concept of community television production and its inner workings. I see myself growing in this and being able to produce my own shows, my own children's programs. I love working with children. I would love to produce plays for children, educational programs.
Your credits also include the Lion King soundtrack. What was your role?
The opening soundtrack for Lion King was done in South Africa. I was one of the singers who was invited. You know the part that goes; nans ingonyama bakithi sung by Lebo M. We also did quite a lot of other songs for the film. That is why The Lion King on Broadway now has about ten South Africans in it.
As a vocalist, you have performed with renowned musicians such as Dizzy Gillespie, Miriam Makeba, Hugh Masekela, and Abdullah Ibrahim, Ladysmith Black Mambazo. Miriam Makeba especially influenced you. Could you talk about your experiences?
Well, growing up in South Africa, a lot of our music was cut off from us. The music that we could get from the radio was either music from America...We grew up not really appreciating our own music. And of course, we could never hear Miriam Makeba because her music was never played on our radios. Although there were many other groups coming up and their music was played, there was never an appreciation of our own art. I think that it was a matter of being brainwashed that prevented us from appreciating our own music, our own talent. When I started going overseas, I met Miriam. I had always loved her music. Those records that could be smuggled in, I always loved listening to her. When I saw her perform for the first time, she just electrified me so much, the powerful messages that she had. She really made me love and appreciate our music. Instead of thinking that I could become a Diana Ross, then I thought, "I could become Thembi." Working with Miriam and Dizzy Gillespie, two pioneers on each side of the ocean, has been a real highlight of my career.
You are living in the United States, at the moment. Could you talk about your experiences?
I just did a workshop at the University of North Carolina. What was so interesting was that you think, "This is a class of Masters students, where should I start?" This is African American Theater, African Studies, you expect people to have a certain level of knowledge about Africa, and South Africa. But in fact, you really have to start from scratch. Many people think of Africa as one country. You have to draw the whole map of Africa, so that they can realize that Africa is a big continent with different countries. Growing up in South Africa, I never knew anything about African Americans, only those that we saw in the movies. Before coming, I thought that America was paved with gold and glamour. I never thought that you could find slums in America as well. Whenever I go home people say, "Oh, in America, you have a lot of money." They do not think that when you are here you do not even have a car, you walk in the streets, you get on the buses. They do not think of this. It is a way of communication, of getting to know about each other's situations.
What are some of your future projects, ideas, or plans?
Like I said before, when I go back home I hope that I can be in a position to have my own production house and produce my own work and share the knowledge that I have acquired all these years.
