Originally published in Sisters of the Screen: Women of Africa on Film Video and Television. Africa World Press, Trenton, NJ, 2000.
Interviews held at FESPACO, February 1997 and in Washington, DC, June 1997.
You have a background in television and are now adding to your experience in the media by studying film. Could you first talk about how you became involved in the media?
I started in television in 1992 and I worked as a production assistant, with the aim of becoming a director. I started out with a small company that had a very good reputation in South Africa and has done a lot of documentaries, educational programs, dramas, and so on. I was there for about four months when the producer decided she wanted me to direct my own program. I did a short five-minute program for prime time. The show was something similar to "Good Morning America" in the United States. It was actually called "Good Morning South Africa." The program that I did focused on how violence affects children in South Africa.
The producer realized that I had a lot of potential, so from that time on I started directing my own documentaries on educational programs. I covered issues on health, housing, and voter election programs for the elections. We did profiles on all the main people who were running for election at the time. I worked on a lot of topics for the South African Broadcasting Corporation, mainly on burning issues in South Africa, educational programs in particular.
Did you come to television through a training program or did you study at the university?
I have an Honor's degree in communication and I majored in broadcasting in South Africa, which is equivalent to a four-year degree in the United States. My main focus was education and the media, particularly television and education. The education system in our country is structured in such a way that a lot of hands-on experience is not available at school because of the lack of facilities, equipment, and that kind of thing. I only got hands-on experience when I started working for Penguin Films in South Africa. It was the first time, in fact, that I understood the whole process of pre-production, production, and post-production. I really began to appreciate what goes on during those phases because we had never really gone into that at school. I was actually thrown into it when I did the children's program.
Could you talk about some of the programs that you worked on?
Everything that I did was for the national television, the South African Broadcasting Corporation. The programs that I made were for the different channels that we had within the South African Broadcasting Corporation. Most of the programs were in English, subtitled in the different ethnic languages, while others would be only in English targeted for the main English-language channels. Some were made for either morning or evening prime time.
What were the African languages used?
Zulu and Sesotho. One channel was for mainly Zulu-speaking people and the other channel was for Sesotho-speaking people. The decision was made that certain programs would be subtitled in Sesotho, and some programs in Zulu. Most of interviews that we did with the people were in their own languages.
Why were the programs mostly in English with subtitles? Even though these programs were subtitled in Zulu and Sesotho, didn't it mean that people who were not literate in those languages and did not understand English would not have access?
It was the executive producers who made the decisions on the languages used. And at that time I was not part of the decision-making structure. As I became more involved in these decisions, I had a lot more input on what should be done and I could talk about the expectations of the people. Being a black South African and having grown up with other people making decisions about the kind of programming we saw, I now had a lot to say about it. However, the ultimate decisions were still out of my hands, really, because the people much higher up were the ones who made the decisions about the language used. The reason that was generally given was that more people understood English, since we have actually nine ethnic languages in South Africa. Zulus make up about sixty or seventy percent, then Sothos, and then the others.
It was unfortunate that I never had the kind of influence that was necessary to change the thinking. I had no access to the people who had the money and the people who were making the decisions. I had no access to those decision-making structures. But my belief is, and what I have seen indicates that the programs that really have an impact are those programs that are made in the people's languages.
The other problem in South Africa is that we still do not have regional television. Everything is centrally controlled. All the broadcasting is done nationally. There is no regional broadcasting like in the United States (where, for instance, you have a local Fox television station in Washington, DC dealing with issues in the Washington, DC area). With national broadcasting it is easier to control what goes out to people.
Could you talk about your evolution from television to film studies and why you want to add film to your media experiences?
One of the main reasons that I wanted to move into film as well was when I realized that a whole lot of documentaries are actually made on film. I had never realized that when working in television—because we aired most of the films from Beta SP—that there are a lot of connections between film and video. These films are shot on celluloid, transferred to video, and broadcast on television. I want to learn the process of making film and the connection between the two media. I want to know the chain from film to television and how that works. Coming to the United States was the only way that I saw that I could get that information and experience. At the Discovery Channel, where I work, everything is shot on 16mm, and some on Super 16. Wildlife films are shot on 35mm for television broadcast and brought down to Beta SP. I am learning about the various steps that take place before a film is aired, such as quality control, and so on.
You are currently a film student, why did you choose the United States, and why Howard University?
It so happened that I got a scholarship at the Discovery Channel. In order to be close to the headquarters, which is in Bethesda, Maryland, the most logical step for me was to go to the nearest film school, which is at Howard University. And the fact that it is a historically black school, well, I thought that would be fine.
Could you describe some of your experiences as a student, and some of your interests?
At Howard University there is a lot of hands-on experience, one has to do it oneself, which gives one a better idea of what goes into being a director of photography, how to do the sound, how to edit. It gives a holistic idea of what goes on in filmmaking, which is a good thing for me, because when one goes back to edit, one realizes the mistakes, the missed shots. This builds directorial skills. In the editing room is where it all happens.
What are some of your objectives when you return to South Africa after your studies in the United States?
I think the biggest influence I can have is as a producer because it is in that capacity that one can really make decisions about what goes out. Producers make editorial decisions, they are the people who put everything together. That is where I want to be, but at the same time I would also want to direct and edit what I do, to have the control of the material and the means of putting that material together.
I am picking up a lot since I have been with the Discovery Channel. I have contacts with producers, people who can make programs. And having been back home and looking at how things are done has really made me realize that I need to be able to be in the structures where decisions are being made, and if you have the kind of education that I am getting here, you get that respect.
In addition, I won't have to rely on an editor to edit things the way that I see them and the way that I believe that my people will see them. I think that a lot of black South Africans like myself will see images in the same way that I do because we have the same kind of background, we grew up under the same conditions, and I know the kinds of things that made us very angry and still make us very angry with the kind of programming that goes out. So I will be able to control the content.
Could you give some examples of the content that made you angry?
There is one incident that stands out. During the elections we put together voter education programs and I participated in making those programs become a reality. Most of the writers who wrote for these programs were white writers, not black writers.
They had jokes that they believed that black people would understand and consider funny. There was one joke that really made me very angry about an Austrian hat. I didn't know what an Austrian hat was, I don't know much about Austria. If you are going to make an Austrian hat joke in a language outside of that context, you are making a joke about something that people don't even have an idea about. I asked, "What is an Austrian hat and who are you talking to, who is your audience?" The response was "No, it is really funny." I then replied, "Yes, it is funny to you because you know what an Austrian hat is. I don't know what an Austria hat looks like."
Could you tell me what an Austrian hat is?
It is a very small hat, I don't know how to describe it. It is very small with a very long feather and it is part of Austrian traditional dress. That was a joke that was going to be incorporated into this whole thing and people were supposed to find it funny. They went ahead, of course, and used the joke. That really made me realize that we needed to be in decision-making structures where we could change such views, where we could make decisions that are good for our people. We cannot rely on other people to make decisions that are good for us. Something as simple as a joke that people do not understand in a program really indicated to me that white people in South Africa do not know about us, and have no intention of knowing about us. And these are things that we are expected to consume as viewers.
What has been your experience with images of Africa, growing up, and more recently?
Growing up I had a lot of influences from American movies. However, there is one South African film that I remember, I think it came out in the 1970s, I must have been about five years old or something like that. Though it was very sketchy because I was so young, I remember it was about twins and there was a witch doctor who lived on a mountain. One of the twins went up to the mountain to do something and then she fell to her death. I don't remember the story but it had a lot to do with people's beliefs and practices. I would really like to see that film now that I am grown and to really understand what it was all about.
There were films like The Gods Must be Crazy. It was funny but it demeaned the Bushmen as a people, and I am glad that it came out when I was much older and I could appreciate what was happening in the film, unlike before. There were other films that were made some while ago that I remember. In all the films that I have seen, Africans were what are considered here in the United States as coons. They make people laugh running around doing this, doing that, you know like this one guy who passed away some years ago Ndaba Mhlongo. He was a coon, he made people laugh, he was a funny looking man, always making people laugh. That is one thing that I remember.
I read a book that described the images of black Americans in film, and when I saw some of the images, I actually saw the similarities between what happened in the United States and what was happening in South Africa. There are some films that I would like to go back to view to be able to understand what was going on and to compare the portrayal of black South Africans in those films with black Americans in the United States.
Could you talk about cinema in South Africa, and how you see your role as a filmmaker within the context of this cinema?
I don't know much about cinema in South Africa because we are bombarded with American images. There were even special cinema houses for European films. The only time that I really began to know or even to see films from other countries was when I went to a cinema not far from where I worked in the suburbs, where French, Italian, and Japanese films were shown. That was the only way of knowing about anything other than American films. Of course, this brings up the issue of distribution, exhibition, and ownership.
There has not been that much work by South African directors or producers, and when there has been, it has been mostly work by white directors and white producers. As people in exile come back into the country with skills in directing, cinematography, and other areas, I see this as a beginning. I see this stage as very important because we can really come together and show what we as black producers and film directors can do.
How were you introduced to African cinema?
Before coming to Howard University I did not know much about African cinema because we did not get many films from Africa at home. So being at Howard University has exposed me to African cinema. As I stated before, the kind of education we got in South Africa was structured in such a way that I knew more about European cinema than African cinema. At Howard University I have access to literature about African cinema and I am able to have discussions with colleagues and professors.
The first time I heard of Ousmane Sembene was when I talked to a colleague. I then read a book about the works of Ousmane Sembene by Françoise Pfaff, but I had never realized how important this man is. At FESPACO a colleague of mine said to me, "Look there is Ousmane" and I thought, "Ousmane," but it did not register, and I said "Ousmane who?" and she said, "Ousmane Sembene, the filmmaker" and I said, "Oh, him, oh I heard about him." Then I kept hearing people talk about him. It was then that I really realized the importance of this man: he is considered the father of African Cinema. All of these things about African cinema I learned when I came to Howard University. It is ironic that I had to go to the United States to learn about cinema in Africa.
The African films that I have seen tend to differ from region to region. West African films, the few that I have seen, tend to be more experimental, whereas Southern African films, such as those I've seen from Zimbabwe, seem to be more didactic. I have been impressed with what people have done with little things that one wouldn't think could make a visual story. It is amazing how a little story could be made into a beautiful film. An example would be someone's desire for a car, this one obsession in owning a car could build into a whole story. It is amazing how little things can make a beautiful story.
How would you compare your training in the United States to that in South Africa?
Since I have been at the film school at Howard University I feel that as black people there are still a lot of things that we need to do in terms of improving what is our own. This also means being able to be in control of what we have with the intention of making it better for people who are going to come later. I found Howard to be much better than what we have at home in terms of access to equipment and facilities.
In terms of hands-on experience, the black universities in South Africa do not have the equipment and there is not the access to internships where you can get that hands-on experience. Here in Washington, DC there is so much, even at the undergraduate level. There are possibilities where one may go out and work for different companies and get the benefit of the hands-on experience that is needed.
The curriculum at Howard University has been really an eye-opener for me, having taken courses like "Blacks in Film" and "African Cinema." We learn about what is happening in our own films, how we are portrayed by white producers and white directors, as well as how we portray ourselves. My interest in being a producer makes me think about how I would portray other black people. I have become more sensitive to and aware of some of the things that are still burning issues in terms of images of black people in the media. In that way, Howard opens your eyes to these things.
In South Africa there was no way that I could learn more about Africa. There was a lot taught about Germany, England, Europe in general, and America. In terms of Africa, if I had not come from the family I came from I would not have known much about Zimbabwe. My father was a journalist, so we had access to encyclopedias when we were very young. Of course the encyclopedias were skewed in their perspective, but at least we got to know about Africa as a continent, what it looks like, where Nigeria is in relation to the Ivory Coast, that kind of thing. We were able to know about the politics of the continent itself, of different countries, what was happening in Malawi, for instance. My father got an opportunity to travel to all these places so he would bring us a lot of information and pictures and we would get a better understanding of Africa.
I find that when interacting with American students, in spite of the sophistication of American media—everybody has access to television and films, and many to the Internet—there is still not that much being reported about Africa in terms of the continent itself, the people who live in the continent. The only time that one hears about Africa or sees about Africa is when there is something terrible happening in African countries.
That makes me appreciate being at Howard University, especially in the film school. As a film student, one learns more about Africa than what is being portrayed. Students interact with African professors, with people who have traveled and who know what Africa is about and what is happening in the film industry there. One gets to meet some of the people who have gone out and have even worked in those areas. Having looked at what other universities had to offer I didn't get the impression that I would be exposed to the theoretical aspects of film that I have been able to get at Howard, in terms of the focus on black issues in film and television.
As a woman filmmaker from South Africa, what role do you envision that you will take on in African cinema?
I think there is a big role that African women so far have played in terms of what goes out in film, and I think a big role that I can play as an African woman is in the area of documentary filmmaking. Just knowing there are so many women—and I know there are a lot more who I haven't met or who were not at FESPACO—when we get together and talk about these issues I hope that we will be motivated to go even further. I am glad that there are more African women like myself who are involved in film and who can tell their stories—not women stories only, but African stories in general, from a woman's perspective.
You stated that you have now been exposed to African filmmakers in general. What have been your impressions of the works by African women filmmakers, and do you think that you can use them as models for your own work?
At FESPACO I did see films by African women, but I have not really had a chance to go back and review those films. What I would like to do is find out more about the experiences of many of these women. I am starting from Southern Africa, with women like Tsitsi Dangarembga, because those are people who are very close to me, and we have so many similarities in terms of the problems that we are facing in Southern Africa. I am looking at her background, where she has been, the issues that she has had to deal with, and that kind of thing.
But in general, I have not been able to do as much research on African women filmmakers, to be able to learn about their strengths and weaknesses, the kinds of issues that they have had to deal with, what they are trying to do right now, where they are going. I would like to be involved in getting together to form some kind of unit as African women filmmakers to improve our conditions in this profession.
As you stated, there is an emerging presence of African women in the cinema. What place do see African women holding in the future?
Being a black African woman has its own problems, aside from getting into the film industry. The film industry in Africa is dominated by men as much as Hollywood filmmaking is dominated by men. I am quite an ambitious woman and for me it is not only the process of making films, it is maximizing my audience, because it does not help to make films and try to convey certain messages to an audience if you do not have the kind of viewers that you want.
I know the biggest obstacle that I have is being black, being African, and, most of all, being a woman. Fortunately, there have been those who have gone ahead of me. What is important is to learn from their experiences, their mistakes, their strengths. I will take from those strengths and learn from the mistakes and make it work for me.
The world of filmmaking is evolving everyday. I am very positive and optimistic about the future and I believe that I will be able to achieve what I really want to do in filmmaking. It has not only to do with the portrayal of women in film. I am not concerned about the specifics. I am cognizant of all those things. It is also important to address the negative portrayal of black people. I am not only concerned about women, I am concerned about children, the way they are portrayed in film; about men, how they are portrayed in film. So you take all of these and make them work. As I said, I am fortunate because there are people who have gone before of me and have done this work. I am using them as a guide to get to where I want to go.
In a multi-racial, post-apartheid South Africa, how does one make the balance with the different races? While indigenous Africans are the majority, people of European descent continue to have an enormous amount of control. What do you see as a multi-racial South Africa in terms of programming, in terms of filmmaking in South Africa?
It depends on your audience. In South Africa it is predominantly black. And even though it is predominantly black there are still a lot of ethnic groups within South Africa, so we need filmmakers and television producers who will make programs that are targeted at different groups.
On the other hand, though we all have different needs, there are programs and films that are going to be accepted by everyone, films that people watch and enjoy as a unit. For instance, people in the urban areas would enjoy the same kinds of things; however, there are distinct differences in the rural areas. There are also films that I believe can be cross-racial. We need to be able to sort out the needs of people and find out the kinds of things that interest each group, the issues that they would like to see addressed when we go to regional broadcasting.
