Originally published in Sisters of the Screen: Women of Africa on Film Video and Television by Beti Ellerson. Africa World Press, Trenton, NJ, 2000. Interview by Beti Ellerson in Paris, France during the Racines Noires [Black Roots] Festival in July 1998. During the festival M’Bissine Thérèse Diop was profiled as a pioneer African actress. Translated from French.
M’Bissine Thérèse Diop, your place as an actor is very important in the history of African cinema. During your career you played the role of Diouana in the film La noire de... by Ousmane Sembene. This film marks the first feature film of African cinema. Before this film, made in 1966, African cinema did not actually exist. Could you talk about this period? What was it like to be an actor in Africa at that time?
In general, the milieu of cinema is very difficult. It was very difficult for me at that time. Oh, if I could have come in contact with someone then who could have assisted me…but no, there was no one! Even in the neighborhood where I lived, to see a black woman in the cinema! As I said, it was very difficult for me. After the film La Noire de..., when I passed by mothers in the neighborhood where I lived, they would turn the other way. Some people were also very critical of me. This period in my life coincided with the 66-68 period in France. Having just returned from France, I wore traditional clothing as well as clothing designed with the “Mao collar.” Of course, that did not help matters, for there were people who said that I had communist ideas, something which I did not even understand. There were those who also said that an African woman who acted in the cinema was a loose woman. Others loved the film, but I was highly criticized. People talked all around me saying, "That girl who acted in La noire de... is Sembene's woman, they are going to get married." They did not understand at all! In other words, having acted in the film people saw me as belonging to Sembene. It was difficult for me to understand this reaction. Even my own mother—normally a mother supports her child when the latter is in difficulty. However, in my own family, I did not get this, I was not given support. No one encouraged me. There were months that passed when my mother did not speak to me because of the film.
Could you talk about how you came to act in the film La Noire de...? How did you meet Ousmane Sembene? Did you do any acting before your role in La Noire de...?
No, but I already had the idea. While I was in France attending tailoring classes, I told a friend that I wanted to join the army to be a parachutist. So, you see, I already had the idea that I wanted to do something different, and it evolved from that. My friend said, “I don’t see you either as a seamstress or as a parachutist, but rather as an actor.” I said, “Actor?” She said, “Yes, I see you as an artist.” Everything evolved from that moment. We contacted Josephine Baker. We wrote to her and she responded, I remember that very well. She sent me one of her photographs. She invited me to come to visit her, but I did not have money to do so nor anybody to help me get some. So at that time I could not really realize my dream. I could not accept any of the invitations that I received.
However, this dream stayed with me; and when I returned to Africa, I enrolled in the Ecole des Arts de Dakar. After my sewing classes, I attended classes at the art school in the evening, from 5 p.m. to 9:30 p.m. I had a friend, Mariam Dembele from Cote d’Ivoire, who knew a photographer who worked at the Actualités Sénégalaises. He took pictures of both of us, and everything evolved from there. Ousmane Sembene saw my photograph and contacted me and then I began to work with him. Each time that I think about La Noire de..., I realize the impact that this period had on me. I think that if I had to do it again I would think more carefully.
Do you mean that you would reconsider your role in the film or as an actor?
No actually, in the film I see my true character. My gestures, movements are actually reflected in the film. The manner in which I see things. I attempted to imagine what the camera sees.
Ousmane Sembene talked to you about the film, his intentions and message, the inner and outer character of Diouana. What were your impressions of the character Diouana?
Sembene gave me the script and I read it carefully. I said nothing to him about it, even until this day. In some ways, I connected the story of Diouana with my own problems. I did not suffer to the same extent as Diouana, who committed suicide, but I know suffering in other ways. Something attracted me to Diouana. Diouana went away to succeed in her life, but yet she committed suicide. I wondered if it was really a suicide or if she was eliminated. Those were the thoughts that I entertained. Though I did not go to France to seek employment, I suffered here in Senegal. One can stay right here at home and suffer in the same way that one can leave one’s home and suffer. Suffering is universal. Perhaps this is what made me accept this role.
You knew the French actor Robert Fontaine before playing in the film La Noire de...?
Yes, he was actually my teacher at the Ecole des Arts de Dakar. I liked Robert Fontaine a great deal because his class was very interesting. He explained everything very well and I asked him questions continually. I remember his telling me, “M’Bissine Thérèse Diop, you must always look at children at play. Their movements are innocent. They are very interesting to observe. This will help you in your work.” And in fact, it was true. Each time I look at children, I get so much pleasure. Children’s behavior differs from that of adults. What they say and do comes from the heart. While adults attempt to hide things, children hide nothing. Adults have gestures that are hard, while the gestures of children are tender, as if touching cotton. These are the things that Robert wanted me to understand. To act in cinema or in theater, one must work at it. I would say that even now, what I really want to do or be in cinema, I have not yet attained. I have not yet reached this goal. I hope it will happen one day before I am old [laughter].
What could that be?
I don’t know actually. I am musing. The role that I would really like is difficult on one hand. I am not political but I would like to play the role of the spouse of a head of state. I would also like to play the role of a warrior. Actually, it would be interesting to see the two roles in order to compare the difference between the two. Certainly the spouse of a head of state has a role, but it is not the same as the role of a warrior. There are several roles that I would like to play. However, these roles have not yet been written. Scripts for which African women artists may act are rare, very rare. They are given only small roles; either you accept them or you don’t. Scriptwriters don’t seem to be able to define or seize the beauty of African women.
You also acted in Ousmane Sembene’s Emitai (1971), a film that showed the effectiveness of the silent rebellion of women.
I like Emitai very much because of the role of the women. I think about that period when all of those women rebelled. Women have had to rebel when things were not right. When things are not right and men act contrary to what is expected of them, if women are not able to obtain peace and calm, to educate and feed their children as they want, they are obliged to “show their claws” and say “we have had enough.” One thinks that women do not have anything to say. On the contrary, women have as much to say as men. But the difference between us has been so well emphasized that some women think they have nothing to say. However, as the film reveals, we often do not even need to rebel, some things can be said and done calmly, in silence.
You also played the role of the spouse of Patrice Lumumba in the film Soleil noir by Alexi Pechniev (1970). It was a film made in the ex-Soviet Union. How were you chosen for this role? Could you talk about your experiences with this film?
The filmmaker chose me to play the role. I was in Dakar, he wrote to the Minister of Culture, and he also sent the script. There were those who were opposed to his choice. I was required to get the permission of a spouse, when I didn't even have a boyfriend! I felt that these requirements were made to set up obstacles for me. There was only one person I have to thank, and each time I think of him I say, “May God help him in all his endeavors because he helped me enormously." Thanks to him, I was able to go to the Soviet Union to work on this film.
Who was he?
I am no longer in touch with him. He worked at the Ministry, he has now retired, he was a teacher. To this day I thank him. I had to obtain signed authorization from the Minister of Culture before going to the Minister of Interior. If I were involved in politics, I could understand this demand. But I am not in politics, I am an artist. Because Sembene was political, I was put in a similar category, I suppose, I don’t know why. I always had this problem, each time I wanted to leave Senegal I had to go first to the Minister of Culture before going to the Minister of Interior for authorization to travel.
And you are not sure why you were associated with the leftist politics of Ousmane Sembene?
I remember once when I was in Kaolack [Senegal]. I was with Sembene, in fact. He asked me to go with him to Ziguinchor, but I told him I would stay in Kaolack with one of my cousins. The next day my cousin came to tell me that there was someone who wanted to see me. I wondered who it was. I remember that day, with my cousin next to me, I was called a communist. Afterwards I wondered whether or not these people really paid attention to the film. I did not make a big fuss but simply said that I was neither communist nor capitalist. I was not interested in these kinds of things.
Let's return to your experiences with the film Soleil noir.
Yes. Soleil noir is the story of Patrice Lumumba and the events that took place in his life. Of course, it touches certain people who were involved in politics in Zaire during his time. I interpreted the role of the wife of Patrice Lumumba, how she and her children were saved.
But, you see, the actor plays the role that she is given. That is the role of a true actor. However, others are not convinced that this is only the movies. They consider the actor even more dangerous than they consider the others, as if the ideas expressed by the character are actually those of the person who interprets them.
Thus, they imagine that we really want to take the place of the characters in the film. In reality I am not interested in these events. One cannot be interested in everything. I am merely interested in art: tailoring, pottery, weaving.
You later acted in the films, Borom Xam Xam (1974) and Cap Manuel (1986), made by your husband Maurice Dorès, who is both a psychiatrist and ethnologist. Could you talk about your experiences working together?
Oh, it has not been easy. With the film Cap Manuel, it was the second time that I had worked with him. I pouted a bit because it is not always easy to work with one’s husband. He paid attention to everyone else except me. One of the camera operators dared to tell him about this. I even said to my husband, "This is the second time and the last time that I am working with you" [laughter]. The role that I played was that of a well-to-do woman who moved about in the haut-bourgeois Senegalese society. She traveled everywhere, everything was easy for her. She had all the money and possessions she wanted. Towards the end of her life, she had some understanding of "black magic” and its powers. She settled at the lakeside and became, well, she was called “crazy,” but in fact it was not madness. Actually, at the end of the film many of those who came to the seashore to fish would go to her to make wishes or receive her blessings. This is a double-layered film; there is one side of it that is ethnological and one side that is cinematic. The film also has an aspect that focuses on this mental illness.
Could you talk about some of your experiences while interpreting this character?
While playing this character my only hope was that I would not end up like her later in my life. When playing a character, whether it is the main character or a secondary role, I do not want to incorporate it too deeply within me. I tell myself that it is a dress that I am wearing today. As soon as I come home, I take it off. I attempt to behave like everyone else, leaving behind the character that I played on the set. I lay it aside and live as everyone else.
During your career as actor you have not played in many films, especially African films. However, you were one of the first actors to play in an African film!
This has not been my decision. I remember there were two filmmakers who came to see me, right here at my home. They asked me to act in their film. However, at the last minute they changed their minds, without having even informed me, not a telephone call, not even a letter. Of course, that was their decision, I was not bothered by it.
In your opinion, what do African filmmakers look for in their female characters, their female actors?
I don’t know if I could really answer that question properly. I think that certain filmmakers give roles to black actors that I would say are not even fit to play. Certain filmmakers, who write scripts, even if they are not important roles, should create interesting characters. I would like to think that from time to time the black woman as actor could play important characters, not always the small, insignificant ones. If our filmmakers themselves do not make the effort to give us work, other filmmakers will not be encouraged to do so. If I were to work on a film today, I would have the means to do so. I would not mind at all going to the United States, Kenya or the Ivory Coast. I heard about a woman in the Ivory Coast with whom I would like to work. Unfortunately, I don’t know her name. It would be with great pleasure to work on a film with her one day.
I am often asked why I am no longer seen on the screens. I can only say that it is not my choice. I don't really regret this, that is the way things turned out. Of course, I have been interested in many things and I like to do many different things. Well, I just hope that everybody who wants to work in cinema will be able to find work, that they will find the means. It does not mean that since I do not have roles to play that others will not.
Currently you are working as an artist using textiles. How did you develop an interest in this area?
I make tapestries and I love it! This interest actually began at the same time that I entered in the cinema. I had hoped to study tapestry in Thies [Senegal], but I was not able to make the connections there. Afterwards, when I came to France, the first thing I thought about was to do tapestry. I told my husband that whether it was acting in films or doing something else, I have always worked. Rather than crying over my predicament—which I don’t do and never have—I looked for someone to teach me tapestry-making. I found a woman who lived in the 13th arrondissement in Paris. It was at that moment that I began doing tapestry work. I adore this work. It has helped me both physically and morally.
You also have a daughter; I met her at the opening night of the Racines Noires Festival. What does she think about your experiences in cinema?
You know, it was only this past year that Zara saw my films. Once when returning from the cinema she looked at me and said, “Oh mama, you were so beautiful, and you still are.” Later, when we went to Senegal, she saw La noire de... a second time in Dakar. We were together when she saw Emitai.
During the festival [Racines Noires], many people asked me if I would mind if my daughter worked in the cinema. I laughed, but when I think about all the problems that I had, I would not want my daughter to be subjected to the same thing, or anyone else for that matter. I remember once she met a photographer who wanted to make photographs of her for casting, but I objected. She is like me in that she likes to do many things. It would be her choice to work in cinema. I want her to complete her studies first. However, it certainly depends on Zara. I will not be the one to tell her to do so. She reads and hears about what is going on.
You have had many interesting experiences from La noire de... to the present. Could you give a summary? What does African cinema mean to you?
What I hope is that African cinema continues to evolve. In African cinema, you find it evolving in some countries more than others. Even in Senegal, where it has evolved more than in other countries, it should be more advanced. It is not only Sembene[Ousmane], Djibril [Diop Mambety] or Johnson [Traoré]. There should be more.
